You can certainly argue that more control makes iPhones safer, since its harder to get malicious software on the phone. But Apple is also abusing their control for their own gain.
You could also argue that locking you in a room would be safer than letting you walk freely out in the world. But I don’t we want that either.
The security approach was what first drew me to Apple back in like 2005. The whole focus on proprietary software that resulted in practically zero malware was definitely worth me having to do file-type conversions on documents and all that crap to keep up with people on Windows. And I loved it. And I kept adding every device and loving how seamless they all interact with each other.
But then there’s that shadow side you refer to. The gradual dumbing down of software, the constant hand-holding. The walled garden began to feel like a lock-in.
My last new Mac purchase was in 2011. I still use that machine. But I was not getting security updates and other things I use were leaving me behind so I decided to give Linux a try. Chose Ubuntu and the hardware was suddenly like new again. Apple makes beautiful machines but waste them on some increasingly basic software. My Linux-run Macs have made me fall in love with computers all over again.
If this somehow results in me being able to run like Graphene on my iPhone in a few years, or even connect my Apple Watch to a non-Apple phone, I will be pretty excited.
Well, but it is just as hard to find exploits for white heads, and this leads to open exploits that last for ages, even if actively used by black heads.
I don’t get the argument. It’s not like you are forced to buy iPhones, there a plenty of brands available.
According to recent data iOS is 30% of the market while android is almost 70% (in Europe).
I used android phones for most of my life. I tried to install alternative OS few time but my banking apps all refused to execute. There were always plenty of apps that were forbidden to remove (Facebook, Samsung applications,…). Then 4 years ago I bought an iPhone. No preinstalled shitty news app, Facebook, etc. Was even able to uninstall the default apps that I do not use. I feel to have much more freedom than before. Apple is not perfect by any means but it’s far from being a prison.
From a market regulation view it is more of a prison than Android.
An example is apps have to use WebKit. That’s right Firefox for iOS doesn’t use Gecko and Google Chrome for iOS doesn’t use Chromium. - That’s the walled garden.
They have me as well, because I am connected with my family through various apple only features now. Apple One, apple family share, location sharing with family, mail service, photos in the cloud, and a lot more
My family would rather gift me an iPhone than switching all to FOSS services, hell, even only switching my GF to not iOS is pain.
Nope, it was so they could take the 30% cut of every penny that is spent on one of their platforms, and also so that it would be extremely inconvenient to leave their ecosystem since doing so would mean leaving behind most of your data.
It’s both of those things. Just like Sony, Xbox, Nintendo, Steam, etc. They take 30% in exchange for exposure, security, and a reliable platform. It’s a trade off. Worth it to some, not to others.
Of those steam is the only one that doesn’t force you to buy software through them on their own hardware. Obviously they would like you to, but you are free to buy elsewhere.
Its primary utility is shoring up their image as the brand where ‘everything just works’ and op/interop is a thoughtless zero friction process. Compromise that and you lose normie, bigtime. So everyone gets locked in…and you get the walled prison basketball court
You’re getting downvoted but how much would you like to bet that once the walled garden is down/third party apps can be installed; we’ll suddenly see “security related apps” installed by some EU law.
If I sound paranoid there’s already an app on Android that scans the content of your photo library (iPhones have this too but it’s only enabled during parental controls, Androids is stealth-enabled 24/7).
Honestly, fuck security. I want every app on my phone to phone home to other malicious app stores with all my personal data. I want them to install backdoor VPNs that tunnel all my data to a man in the middle. I want them to allow me to jailbreak my phone so I can install permanent rootkits, that way adversaries can reload their botnets even after I factory reset my phone.
On the real, i appreciate Apple for what they’ve done so far. If this happens, ill have to move back to GrapheneOS. Which is fine, but its just so much more time that I have to spend on making the phone work versus working on the phone.
We should force the entire EU to mandate GrapheneOS on all phones. Well see how much they enjoy the experience.
As a tinkerer, stuff like Linux and Graphene are right up my alley. But as a dude with a job and family I just don’t have the time anymore. Apple is far from perfect but their security/privacy efforts are the lesser of the evils for almost no extra time/thinking required from me so they’re the ideal option for now. Really hope all these laws don’t muck that up.
Should you stay with using the Apple app store. It absolutely nothing bad about this decision it gives people the option to use an alternate app store if they want but it doesn’t force anyone to.
The amount of bad faith arguments in this thread are disturbing for supposedly informed tech savvy people.
It’s so weird. I can kind of understand this level of ignorance on other platforms, but here? The platform a majority of the people actively sought out because they saw what happens when a walled gardens starts turning against its users?
At the very least, I would’ve expected better arguments than “I don’t want this, so I oppose other’s from having that option.”
The obvious Apple fanboy is the kind of person who sings praises to every single new version of every Apple product even when it barelly differs from the last one, never criticizes their products and goes to a queue outside an Apple store the evening of the day before a new release of an Apple product to be one of the first to buy it next morning when the store opens.
I’ve personally came across a couple of people just like that over the years.
(Granted, they were more common a decade or so ago)
Every single person here doggedly defending Apple’s choice whose argument boils down to “it’s fine it’s as I like it” (whilst ignoring that everybody else has their own likes and dislikes) to justify Apple only having a closed-down environment without an open environment as another option, is probably a fanboy.
“I love it the way it is” isn’t logical, it’s emotional, and there really isn’t a natural human tendency (in most people) to want to have their choices taken away, so something else is at play when somebody defends nobody having any options with Apple other than Apple, with the argument that “I like it like that”, since logically, having the option of an open system won’t take away the option of the closed system for those who like it.
That said, an alternative explanation for such behaviour is that they’re just self-centred people who are extremely used to a specific environment and couldn’t imagine why anybody would want it to be different, a posture which is often associated with fanboyism of the brand which makes that environment, but not always.
Honestly, both here and on Reddit I see more of that blind faith for Google and Microsoft. It’s so weird that the open-source community has a slice of people insisting their giant company is somehow virtuous because it’s slightly less fashionable. Even weirder when they write paragraph’s psychoanalyzing imaginary people.
Honestly, both here and on Reddit I see more of that blind faith for Google and Microsoft. It’s so weird that the open-source community has a slice of people insisting their giant company is somehow virtuous because it’s slightly less fashionable.
Even weirder when they write paragraph’s psychoanalyzing imaginary people.
Oh, the irony!
It’s funny how your attempt at psychoanalyzing me from my post ended up relying on the idea that because I’m not pro-Apple then I must be for some other large company.
What you just did is called Projection - you’re interpreting others as if they were you and had your drives and motivations.
Allow me to introduce you to the idea that some people simply don’t think that having an emotional relation towards a brand, any brand, is healthy, and that not everybody is some brand-fan fighting against the fans of other brands like they’re sports teams.
it gives people the option to use an alternate app store if they want but it doesn’t force anyone to.
That argument sounds great in theory, but would break down after a month or less, when companies start moving their apps off of Apple’s App Store and onto a 3rd party store that allows all the spyware Apple has forced them to remove if they want to have an iOS market. This move DOES force people to use alternate app stores when companies start moving (not copying, moving) their apps over to said stores to take advantage of the drop in oversight.
I kinda agree with your sentiment. If I’m spending $1000+ on a device, I want to truly own it and do whatever I want with it. Unfortunately people have gotten very used to companies like Apple telling them what they can and can’t do, and Apple artificially restricting things (like giving first-party apps special permissions that third-party apps can’t get) so they make more money. It’s not great that this is so widespread now. At least there’s people like Louis Rossman that still care about these things.
If the manufacturer wants to have an “easy mode” where they limit what can be done, like what Apple does today, that’s totally fine. Just don’t force it onto everyone.
The issue with “easy mode” is that it can be disabled. Scammers can and will find ways to trick grandma into disabling easy mode on her devices and then get her to install malware.
Thats the thing. I buy apple products for that sole reason rather than use a GrapheneOS device.
I want it locked down. I want it immutable. I want it matching every other device so im not fingerprinted. I want it backing up to the cloud with end to end encryption while syncing with all my other devices. I want it to airplay to my TV. I want it to be a webcam for my macbook. I want it to hold some health data while keeping it out of prying eyes. I want iMessage to end to end encrypt my text messages to other iMessage users.
Why bother getting an iOS device if thats not what you’re after? Their products are some of the most secure devices, with the longest support life. I save money by holding an iPhone for 6 years, versus 3 years with an Android phone.
Listen, I LOVE grapheneOS. Its just not a complete ecosystem yet.
I want it locked down. I want it immutable. I want it matching every other device so im not fingerprinted.
That’s totally fine… But it should be optional, so that people who want to take full advantage of their device (instead of being restricted) can do so.
I save money by holding an iPhone for 6 years, versus 3 years with an Android phone
There’s no reason you couldn’t hold an Android phone for just as long. Samsung and Google both offer 7 years of security updates.
“I don’t like it so no one else should have it”, is that your argument? You lose absolutely nothing by Apple opening up their platform. You can just continue to use the app store and it will literally be like nothing happened.
I dont want you in my device. I dont want your third parties. I have no desire to make my device more vulnerable just so you can install malware on yours. Any open apple device is a risk to my closed apple device.
Learn to take “no” for an answer. Let me enjoy the product and use it as I intended. I don’t use it for you.
What’s the disadvantage of being able to open it up? That’s the part I don’t quite understand. It could be disabled by default and require the user to enable an “expert” or “full featured” mode, or something like that.
I think we’re going to eventually reach a point where the European iPhone is far superior to and more innovative than the American one, just because of the fact that you can do a lot more with it. Apple’s software will have to compete on merit, not just win by default because it’s the only choice available on the device.
I’m actually curious as to if it determines EU vs US based on where you buy the phone, based on country for the account, or based on something else entirely.
I thought that “walled-garden” was for security and privacy in the case of Apple? I always relied on them for that.
You can certainly argue that more control makes iPhones safer, since its harder to get malicious software on the phone. But Apple is also abusing their control for their own gain.
You could also argue that locking you in a room would be safer than letting you walk freely out in the world. But I don’t we want that either.
I dunno, are meals provided in the locked room? The world is a pretty fucking awful place right now.
Yes but only oatmeal (no toppings).
Oh goddamnit
The security approach was what first drew me to Apple back in like 2005. The whole focus on proprietary software that resulted in practically zero malware was definitely worth me having to do file-type conversions on documents and all that crap to keep up with people on Windows. And I loved it. And I kept adding every device and loving how seamless they all interact with each other.
But then there’s that shadow side you refer to. The gradual dumbing down of software, the constant hand-holding. The walled garden began to feel like a lock-in.
My last new Mac purchase was in 2011. I still use that machine. But I was not getting security updates and other things I use were leaving me behind so I decided to give Linux a try. Chose Ubuntu and the hardware was suddenly like new again. Apple makes beautiful machines but waste them on some increasingly basic software. My Linux-run Macs have made me fall in love with computers all over again.
If this somehow results in me being able to run like Graphene on my iPhone in a few years, or even connect my Apple Watch to a non-Apple phone, I will be pretty excited.
If people want a phone that acts like an android, just buy an android.
Why are people trying to make iPhones into androids?
Well, but it is just as hard to find exploits for white heads, and this leads to open exploits that last for ages, even if actively used by black heads.
There is no security by obfuscation
You still have the freedom to not use alternative app stores.
I don’t get the argument. It’s not like you are forced to buy iPhones, there a plenty of brands available. According to recent data iOS is 30% of the market while android is almost 70% (in Europe). I used android phones for most of my life. I tried to install alternative OS few time but my banking apps all refused to execute. There were always plenty of apps that were forbidden to remove (Facebook, Samsung applications,…). Then 4 years ago I bought an iPhone. No preinstalled shitty news app, Facebook, etc. Was even able to uninstall the default apps that I do not use. I feel to have much more freedom than before. Apple is not perfect by any means but it’s far from being a prison.
From a market regulation view it is more of a prison than Android.
An example is apps have to use WebKit. That’s right Firefox for iOS doesn’t use Gecko and Google Chrome for iOS doesn’t use Chromium. - That’s the walled garden.
as long as you don’t want to do some crazy unthinkable thing, like, say, getting notifications on your smartwatch that isn’t made by Apple
I’m having trouble conceptualizing the words you just used in my brain.
What other brands are available to use for iOS?
Yea, now try to get away from apple again
They have me as well, because I am connected with my family through various apple only features now. Apple One, apple family share, location sharing with family, mail service, photos in the cloud, and a lot more
My family would rather gift me an iPhone than switching all to FOSS services, hell, even only switching my GF to not iOS is pain.
Vertical integration is bad, m’kay?
My Android phone (Realme) allowed me to uninstall most pre-installed bloatware.
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Nope, it was so they could take the 30% cut of every penny that is spent on one of their platforms, and also so that it would be extremely inconvenient to leave their ecosystem since doing so would mean leaving behind most of your data.
It’s both of those things. Just like Sony, Xbox, Nintendo, Steam, etc. They take 30% in exchange for exposure, security, and a reliable platform. It’s a trade off. Worth it to some, not to others.
Steam doesn’t belong in that list because you’re free to use whatever game store you want on a PC. No computers are limited to only using Steam.
Not even their own hardware, the steam deck, was in any way closed down. Quite the opposite actually.
And now SteamOS is being used in other platforms, so you can use the software on other hardware vendors if you like
Of those steam is the only one that doesn’t force you to buy software through them on their own hardware. Obviously they would like you to, but you are free to buy elsewhere.
Aren’t all Xbox games on windows now? Either through steam, the Microsoft store, or gamepass?
Its primary utility is shoring up their image as the brand where ‘everything just works’ and op/interop is a thoughtless zero friction process. Compromise that and you lose normie, bigtime. So everyone gets locked in…and you get the walled prison basketball court
That’s the lie they tell you, yeah.
You’re getting downvoted but how much would you like to bet that once the walled garden is down/third party apps can be installed; we’ll suddenly see “security related apps” installed by some EU law.
If I sound paranoid there’s already an app on Android that scans the content of your photo library (iPhones have this too but it’s only enabled during parental controls, Androids is stealth-enabled 24/7).
It’s called something android core, you can uninstall it, but it may comeback each update.
Honestly, fuck security. I want every app on my phone to phone home to other malicious app stores with all my personal data. I want them to install backdoor VPNs that tunnel all my data to a man in the middle. I want them to allow me to jailbreak my phone so I can install permanent rootkits, that way adversaries can reload their botnets even after I factory reset my phone.
On the real, i appreciate Apple for what they’ve done so far. If this happens, ill have to move back to GrapheneOS. Which is fine, but its just so much more time that I have to spend on making the phone work versus working on the phone.
We should force the entire EU to mandate GrapheneOS on all phones. Well see how much they enjoy the experience.
As a new user of GrapheneOS, I have yet to see the difference with regular Android except that it’s way more secure.
Graphene doesn’t support any of my banking or MFA apps, at least last time I tried it.
GrapheneOS is how Android should be, but its a solitary experience versus iOS, which harnesses the interplay with other apple devices.
Would grapheneOS work well on a Boox Tab Ultra C?
No. GrapheneOS only supports Google Pixel devices. I do not know if the Boox boot loader can be unlocked to support any custom ROMs.
As a tinkerer, stuff like Linux and Graphene are right up my alley. But as a dude with a job and family I just don’t have the time anymore. Apple is far from perfect but their security/privacy efforts are the lesser of the evils for almost no extra time/thinking required from me so they’re the ideal option for now. Really hope all these laws don’t muck that up.
Should you stay with using the Apple app store. It absolutely nothing bad about this decision it gives people the option to use an alternate app store if they want but it doesn’t force anyone to.
The amount of bad faith arguments in this thread are disturbing for supposedly informed tech savvy people.
It’s so weird. I can kind of understand this level of ignorance on other platforms, but here? The platform a majority of the people actively sought out because they saw what happens when a walled gardens starts turning against its users?
At the very least, I would’ve expected better arguments than “I don’t want this, so I oppose other’s from having that option.”
There is a ton of fanboyism around Apple, same as there was for Musk some years ago.
I love BRAND is just another form of tribalism and one that Apple cultivated for themselves for decades.
(Curiously, going down the thread I saw fewer Apple fanboys that one would find in, say, Reddit)
Reddit doesn’t seem to have a lot of those either, maybe in those apple specific subs, but people prefer android and pc
Can you provide a single real life example of an apple “fanboy” that you have encountered?
The obvious Apple fanboy is the kind of person who sings praises to every single new version of every Apple product even when it barelly differs from the last one, never criticizes their products and goes to a queue outside an Apple store the evening of the day before a new release of an Apple product to be one of the first to buy it next morning when the store opens.
I’ve personally came across a couple of people just like that over the years.
(Granted, they were more common a decade or so ago)
Every single person here doggedly defending Apple’s choice whose argument boils down to “it’s fine it’s as I like it” (whilst ignoring that everybody else has their own likes and dislikes) to justify Apple only having a closed-down environment without an open environment as another option, is probably a fanboy.
“I love it the way it is” isn’t logical, it’s emotional, and there really isn’t a natural human tendency (in most people) to want to have their choices taken away, so something else is at play when somebody defends nobody having any options with Apple other than Apple, with the argument that “I like it like that”, since logically, having the option of an open system won’t take away the option of the closed system for those who like it.
That said, an alternative explanation for such behaviour is that they’re just self-centred people who are extremely used to a specific environment and couldn’t imagine why anybody would want it to be different, a posture which is often associated with fanboyism of the brand which makes that environment, but not always.
Also another explanation is paid sockpuppet.
Honestly, both here and on Reddit I see more of that blind faith for Google and Microsoft. It’s so weird that the open-source community has a slice of people insisting their giant company is somehow virtuous because it’s slightly less fashionable. Even weirder when they write paragraph’s psychoanalyzing imaginary people.
Oh, the irony!
It’s funny how your attempt at psychoanalyzing me from my post ended up relying on the idea that because I’m not pro-Apple then I must be for some other large company.
What you just did is called Projection - you’re interpreting others as if they were you and had your drives and motivations.
Allow me to introduce you to the idea that some people simply don’t think that having an emotional relation towards a brand, any brand, is healthy, and that not everybody is some brand-fan fighting against the fans of other brands like they’re sports teams.
That argument sounds great in theory, but would break down after a month or less, when companies start moving their apps off of Apple’s App Store and onto a 3rd party store that allows all the spyware Apple has forced them to remove if they want to have an iOS market. This move DOES force people to use alternate app stores when companies start moving (not copying, moving) their apps over to said stores to take advantage of the drop in oversight.
I kinda agree with your sentiment. If I’m spending $1000+ on a device, I want to truly own it and do whatever I want with it. Unfortunately people have gotten very used to companies like Apple telling them what they can and can’t do, and Apple artificially restricting things (like giving first-party apps special permissions that third-party apps can’t get) so they make more money. It’s not great that this is so widespread now. At least there’s people like Louis Rossman that still care about these things.
If the manufacturer wants to have an “easy mode” where they limit what can be done, like what Apple does today, that’s totally fine. Just don’t force it onto everyone.
The issue with “easy mode” is that it can be disabled. Scammers can and will find ways to trick grandma into disabling easy mode on her devices and then get her to install malware.
Thats the thing. I buy apple products for that sole reason rather than use a GrapheneOS device.
I want it locked down. I want it immutable. I want it matching every other device so im not fingerprinted. I want it backing up to the cloud with end to end encryption while syncing with all my other devices. I want it to airplay to my TV. I want it to be a webcam for my macbook. I want it to hold some health data while keeping it out of prying eyes. I want iMessage to end to end encrypt my text messages to other iMessage users.
Why bother getting an iOS device if thats not what you’re after? Their products are some of the most secure devices, with the longest support life. I save money by holding an iPhone for 6 years, versus 3 years with an Android phone.
Listen, I LOVE grapheneOS. Its just not a complete ecosystem yet.
That’s totally fine… But it should be optional, so that people who want to take full advantage of their device (instead of being restricted) can do so.
There’s no reason you couldn’t hold an Android phone for just as long. Samsung and Google both offer 7 years of security updates.
We can agree to disagree. I don’t think apple devices should be opened up at all. If you want an opened up device, look for a different manufacturer.
That is such an unbelievably idiotic statement.
“I don’t like it so no one else should have it”, is that your argument? You lose absolutely nothing by Apple opening up their platform. You can just continue to use the app store and it will literally be like nothing happened.
I dont want you in my device. I dont want your third parties. I have no desire to make my device more vulnerable just so you can install malware on yours. Any open apple device is a risk to my closed apple device.
Learn to take “no” for an answer. Let me enjoy the product and use it as I intended. I don’t use it for you.
The UK is so fucking nosey.
https://apnews.com/article/apple-iphone-encryption-britain-cybersecurity-c5c37e99b3b9161dbed24231fbd94746
What’s the disadvantage of being able to open it up? That’s the part I don’t quite understand. It could be disabled by default and require the user to enable an “expert” or “full featured” mode, or something like that.
I think we’re going to eventually reach a point where the European iPhone is far superior to and more innovative than the American one, just because of the fact that you can do a lot more with it. Apple’s software will have to compete on merit, not just win by default because it’s the only choice available on the device.
I’m actually curious as to if it determines EU vs US based on where you buy the phone, based on country for the account, or based on something else entirely.
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